Mintz On Air: Practical Policies — Truth Telling Builds Trust

Honest workplace conversations are rarely easy, but avoiding them can create bigger challenges over time.

In this episode of Mintz On Air: Practical Policies podcast, host Jen Rubin speaks with Celia Eckert, General Counsel at Xencor, about how candid feedback, curiosity, and empathy can strengthen workplace trust. Their conversation explores:

• How feedback timing promotes receptivity
• How curiosity improves performance conversations and builds workplace trust
• How to focus on positive aspects of performance while still encouraging improvement

Do you advise on, manage, or lead sensitive workplace conversations? This episode offers practical guidance on addressing issues directly while building trust.

Mintz On Air: Practical Policies — Truth Telling Builds Trust Transcript

Jen Rubin (JR): Welcome to the Mintz On Air: Practical Policies podcast. Today’s topic: Truth Telling Builds Trust. I’m Jen Rubin, a Member of the Mintz Employment Group with the San Diego–based Bicoastal Employment Practice, representing management executives and corporate boards. I am always looking to find creative solutions to workplace challenges. Thanks for joining our Mintz On Air podcast. If you have not tuned in to our previous episodes and you would like to access our content, please visit us at the Insights Center at Mintz.com, or you can find us on Spotify.

Today I’m joined by Celia Eckert. Celia is general counsel of Xencor, a publicly traded biopharmaceutical company focused on expanding the therapeutic boundaries of antibody drugs. With over 25 years in the biotech industry, Celia thrives in her role as a legal generalist and trusted advisor, blending strategic insight with a proactive, solutions-oriented mindset. Celia began her legal career as an antitrust lawyer in a large international law firm, and after taking a period off to focus on her family, she transitioned to in-house roles.

Celia finds fulfillment supporting Xencor’s mission to develop its broad pipeline of drug candidates to treat patients with cancer and other serious diseases. Celia is a Southern California native who adores her two grown kids and their irresistible, lovable doodle. She finds her center in hot yoga studios and along the California coast during the quiet magic of early mornings and twilight.

With that said, thank you for joining me on the pod today. 

Celia Eckert (CE): My pleasure. Thanks for having me.

JR: I’m looking forward to this conversation about how to make performance management into a positive experience — even when that feedback is negative. Part of this discussion is about taking the negativity out of performance management discussions, because that can actually enhance the workplace and the employee experience in more ways than we might imagine.

Why Honest Feedback Is a Gift

JR: Ultimately, truth telling builds trust as long as the delivery is done in an empathetic way, and we are going to dive into that. But I thought I would start with an anecdote about what was shared with me when I was a senior associate. I was in my seventh year of practice at firm number two, and a very senior lawyer took me aside and said, “Hey Jen, I think you’re really going to be miserable if you stay here.” I remember at the time thinking, “Wow, that’s incredible feedback to give me about this firm I thought I was investing in.” And I remember really not being ready to hear that feedback. I was resistant to that feedback. But you know what, Celia? It was the truth. And I have to tell you, if I had stayed at that firm, I would have been a very unhappy lawyer. More importantly, I never would have found the groove I found with Mintz, which explains why I’ve been here for 26 years. So with that, Celia, I’d love to hear your thoughts on the value of truth telling in performance discussions.

CE: I think it’s a brave gift that person gave you, right Jen? You probably are grateful for it at this point in your life because it led you to this happy place you are now. It’s a brave, trustworthy relationship that will tell you the truth, even if the truth might not be welcome.

We have to have those relationships in our lives to keep us from making fools of ourselves. It reminds me of the Emperor’s New Clothes. Or how your good friends tell you when you have food in your teeth. I heard recently about somebody who, at the beginning of his career, was afraid of the truth and craved appreciation. As he grew more senior he feared appreciation and craved the truth. I don’t know that we need to fear appreciation — I love appreciation — but I think it’s good for all employees’ morale to feel like people are being told the truth.

Everybody notices if somebody needs to have some course correction. And it’s good for a workplace to feel like people are able to give each other feedback, if people can be 100% respectful and 100% truthful in their communication. That takes nuance and skill. And there are a lot of different tips and tricks you can develop to provide that. It’s not easy, but it’s super important. 

Delivering Difficult Feedback with Empathy

JR: What’s interesting to me is that it’s easier for people to be dishonest. It’s easier for people to say, “This thing you did for me, it was just great and I love you and thank you so much.” A better approach, if there were some issues with the person’s performance, would be for you to actually say, “I really appreciate you did this. There are a lot of things you did well. Here are some things I’d like you to focus on for the future, that can make you more successful in your role if you focus on them.”

You talk about the right way to deliver these things. Celia, can you give us some examples of how to deliver this information so that you can get that truthful and honest feedback across to the individual in a way they will receive it?

CE: I think it’s good to enter those conversations with a bit of curiosity. “This is my view of things. This is what I’m seeing. What are the objective facts that we can agree upon?” You’re probably not the only person who has witnessed those objective facts. And then you can say, “I could draw the conclusions from these objective facts that you are, for example, not engaged, impatient, irritated, or acting unprofessionally. Are there facts I’m missing before I draw those conclusions?” Make it more of a conversation. 

I heard an example of somebody who got the gift of honest feedback from a mentor who said, “It seems like you’re impatient and irritated in communications of important topics, and you’re rushing through them and rushing other people through them.” And the person took it to heart and realized that her introverted discomfort with chitchat was leading to this view. So it was something that was correctable by providing that view. 

How Managers Can Use Curiosity During Difficult Feedback Discussions

JR: I love the concept of curiosity as applied to these conversations because to me, curiosity leads to communication. Because what is curiosity? “How do you feel? What are the things I can do to help you be more successful? What is your position about this, and why are you approaching it this way?” You have that two-way conversation, which is grounded in curiosity. You wouldn’t ask somebody to provide the information unless you wanted to receive it.

Let me ask you this, Celia. I think what we’re dancing around and what this is all about is this concept of empathy in these communications. I’m interested about your view as to how applying those concepts to the curious communications can benefit the communications themselves? 

CE: If you have the intention of empathy before you step into that conversation, you’re thinking of your view, your frustration, but you’re also thinking about where could you be wrong. What could be going on behind the scenes where our perception may not be the truth? If I put myself in the individual’s shoes, what could be the hundred other reasons why this is happening this way? 

The relationships you create before you get to that conversation, where the person trusts that you’re not going to show up with something out of left field because over the course of the relationship, you’ve been honest and maybe even shared your own struggles. That’s another level of empathy that can come into those conversations, when you share that people have had misperceptions about you and you were shocked to learn them, and so now you’re open to having something other than what you view is the truth as being the actual story.

JR: It’s really vulnerability, right? The relationships you’ve created by showing yourself to be vulnerable. I think that’s what at the core creates the most honest communications. Because people know who you are, there’s the consistency, they know what to expect — so when you need to share corrective information, I think it gets received in those circumstances.

When to Give Performance Feedback: Why Timing Matters

JR: Let’s talk about timing, because I think this is something a lot of managers don’t focus on. When is the optimal time to give feedback, and how? 

CE: I would say the perfect time is as soon as possible, but not so soon that you’re still in that fight-or-flight irritation mode. When you’ve collected enough information and taken a breath and maybe even bounced it off somebody else to make sure of what your perception is — another trusted member of management or somebody trusted on the team who saw the same thing. “This is what I saw. Am I missing some background?” 

Collect enough information, but you don’t want to be collecting your rap sheet on somebody without them knowing you’re collecting it. I don’t think employees should be surprised. 

Some people lack self-awareness and sometimes you need to say things a few different ways before they hear it. I’ve had that where high performers know they have good technical skills and they feel that’s enough. And you have to keep saying “these other skills are also necessary” a few different ways. Sometimes it’s not just building them up, but it’s having that conversation. “This is a matter of getting promoted. This is a matter of staying here.” Sometimes you have to say the hard words because encouragement isn’t working. 

JR: Absolutely. That goes to, as you mentioned, this concept of fight-or-flight. We’ve all been in that position where something surprises us and it’s something that makes us very emotional. We’re humans. Every one of us has experienced that. So understanding that when you see the look in their eyes, or their reaction, understanding to take that pause and say, “Let’s take some time to think about this and take a step back. Let’s rewind or let’s take a few days and let’s put another meeting on the calendar when we can look at this from a 30,000-foot view.” Instead of pressing ahead when you see the person reacting. That gets to the empathetic portion of it, right? How would you feel if somebody kept pressing at a moment where you’re not processing properly? I think it would be helpful for people, especially managers, to understand that taking that pause is a good thing. You may need to deliver some news, you may need to deliver it within a certain time frame, we all understand the dictates of a business. We can’t always choose the ideal time and place. But sometimes you do need to take that time. Whether it’s an hour or a day, it’s great when you allow people that time for reflection. 

Developing Self-Awareness and Growth Through Feedback

JR: Celia, how do we get people to not only reflect on themselves as employees and how they can do their jobs better, but how do we get managers to be more reflective?

CE: That is such a good question. It’s brave to look at our own blind spots as managers. Managers need to be the first ones, in performance reviews and during performance season, to be asking peers and doing informal 360s. For managers too it is a gift to be told how you can be better, and to have a growth mindset.

People are more fulfilled if they feel like they’re growing and stretching. And while it’s a little bit uncomfortable to be doing something unfamiliar, once we build that new muscle or that new skill, it feels satisfying. If you can help an employee move through a difficult performance issue, then sometimes those become your best employees. You’ve developed trust and a relationship where you’ve moved through something together.

JR: I want to take that a step further because it’s been my experience in my career. I’ve been in private practice for 37 years, which I still can’t believe. But I think about all these relationships I’ve developed over time with some people who did need to leave, but who were really grateful for somebody telling them the truth. Then it turns out that they’re your best client, they’re your best customer. That goes to that relationship of trust, where people who are grateful for receiving that feedback can then reflect back on it later and think, “I really appreciate that that person gave me the gift of telling me I would have been miserable.” I definitely wouldn’t be sitting here. That’s something that’s hard in the moment, but when you’re reflective, it can really help build not just you and your career, but other relationships that make you successful. Because most of us can’t do what we do and be good at what we’re doing without the support of not only the people we work with, but people on the outside too. I would love people to take that away from this discussion as well. 

How Solution-Focused Feedback Improves Employee Performance

JR: Another thing I want to focus on — and you touched on it, Celia — is making the effort to be the solution finder, the solution identifier. In other words, instead of going into a performance discussion with “you did these things and they were bad” or “they were damaging to the company,” or “they were damaging to other employees,” flip that around so it’s “I would like you to do more of these other things that are beneficial not just to you, but to the company.” Focusing on the positive rather than the negative. It’s the natural human propensity to gravitate toward people who are positive. What are your thoughts on that? 

CE: Absolutely. If we get to know people, we can think of somebody as a wonderful human and see what they’re good at and know that it’s not what the organization needs. As we get to know people and we see what lights them up and what they love to do, and we learn to appreciate them for who they are, then we might see that what they love to do is not necessarily what we need. 

If you build a relationship where somebody believes you know them and want what’s best for them, you can bring them along to see what this job requires. For example, “This job requires somebody who loves doing this, and you don’t love doing that, right? And that’s 75% of this job. Do you really want to be doing this?” 

It’s interesting too because somebody recently was asking in a women’s group whether it’s difficult to be friends with people you work with? Can you develop that trust of friendship with people you work with? I think you need to earn that trust and you need to obviously stay professional and be kind. It’s something that’s built over time, where people feel like you understand them. You have to be careful with how casual and familiar you get, but you can have people feel like you know them well enough to be able to give them feedback, that you have their best interest at heart. It takes some work and rolling up your sleeves. 

Building Trust Through Honest Workplace Communication

JR: Let’s bring it all the way back because I think it’s interesting where we’ve wound up here. The nature of the employment relationship is such that it’s not a level playing field, right? The manager is not your peer, even though you may be friends and you can be friendly. The manager’s job is to ensure that the employee is doing the work the employee was hired to do. To me what’s fascinating, not just as an employment lawyer but as an observer of humans in the workplace, is the question of how do you take the nature of that adversarial relationship and create a relationship of trust, honesty, and support? The people who do that best have the biggest impact on their organizations because they’re going to figure out how to harness all of those things to get the best performance.

You talk about the growth mindset, Celia, and I think that growth mindset actually comes with curiosity. I think that’s the starting point. That takes us all the way back to the concept that truth telling builds trust. And being curious, not only about yourself but about what it takes to succeed at a given organization. I think that’s going to create the best paradigm for a growth mindset in the workplace. 

I realize, Celia, you and I are having this relaxing conversation on this pod, and it’s much harder in practice when you have a particular situation going on in the workplace where there’s a lot of stress and pressure. But avoiding telling the truth to an employee might be the worst thing you could do for somebody, not only in terms of their professional development but their personal development as well. 

CE: When we’re in a conversation and the employee receiving the information is feeling aggressive or defensive, then the reaction generally is that all the emotions are heightened. So it’s important to be aware of yourself. We have to notice our own reactions first. 

And as much as I love to take a pause, it’s important to be keeping our notes from a legal perspective as we pause, because things can be developing on the side. Things can pop up and you’re going to want to have documentation of the timeline. That’s the lawyer in me coming out.

JR: But, well, we are lawyers! And by the way, this is the Practical Policies podcast. And one of the reasons we’re having this discussion is to provide some insights to people about how to mitigate some of these issues that occur in the workplace. At the end of the day, I really do think it starts with building that trusting relationship, the curiosity.

But keep in mind it’s a workplace, and you’re there to promote the mission of the organization and not necessarily of the individual who’s hired to perform those services. That sounds so negative and it’s not meant to be, but understanding that is the crux of developing healthy and productive relationships.

Wrap-up

JR: Celia Eckert, thank you so much for joining me today. This was a fun conversation, and I hope our listeners got something out of this, because you and I enjoy talking about these things. But it’s fun to share it with other people so they can take some practical suggestions. So thank you, Celia. 

CE: My pleasure. Thank you, Jen. 

JR: I want to remind our listeners that they can find more information about our Employment Practice and our thought leadership, as well as our other podcasts, on the Insights Center at Mintz.com. They can find the Mintz On Air: Practical Policies podcast on Spotify. Once again, I’m Jen Rubin. Thank you for joining us.

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